Know Ya Flow
Women in flow, share what they know. Hear women's stories of how they've grown, what they know, and how they are living in flow.
Know Ya Flow
When You Hate Your Sister's Boyfriend - Breaking Free from Toxic Relationships and Healing Together w/Rachel and Sarah Larson
What happens when two sisters with a five-year age gap grow up to become best friends? Discover the endearing journey of Rachel and Sarah Larson as they walk us through their cherished childhood memories and reminisce about Rachel’s nurturing role in Sarah’s life. This episode offers a heartwarming look into how their relationship has evolved over time.
Rachel, Sarah and I talk about the dynamics of their unique sister relationship.
How they differ as people and the ways that they've grown together.
At point Sarah was dating a guy that Rachel didn't like which *we've all been there* obviously put a strain on their relationship.
We talk about how they navigated that, what that felt like, and being on the other side.
What Rachel says about her relationship with Sarah... "Being Sarah’s big sister is one of my favorite things in my life. She’s not only my sister, she’s my best friend. It sounds incredibly cheesy, but it’s the honest truth. When things were strained it was one of the darkest times of my life. Wanting to save her but knowing she had to save herself challenged me in more ways than one. But, I am so proud of her for saving herself and growing into the woman she is today.
What Sarah says about her relationship with Rachel...."I’ve always felt close to my sister, but the times where things were strained were the hardest times. It’s so hard when feeling stuck in something you can’t get out of, knowing the person you’ve always looked up to is unhappy. I feel so lucky for where we are now, her open arms and endless support helped me get here. We’ve had many cycles and iterations of our sisterhood, this conversation explores the ebbs and flows through these cycles. Luckily, no matter what, there is always love as the driving force between us."
And for a lighter note, we indulge in our mutual love for reality TV, sharing our favorite shows and the entertainment they bring into our lives. This episode is a heartfelt blend of personal reflections, growth stories, and joyful conversations that will resonate with anyone on a similar journey.
Welcome to Know your Flow podcast, where women in flow share what they know. I'm your host, lauren Barton. Join me as we talk to women and hear their stories on what they know, how they've grown and living in flow. All right, hi. Today we're here with the Larson sisters. Hi, larson sisters. Hey, what a silly way that.
Speaker 2:I start those. No, I thought it was great. That's who we are, but that's not our last names anymore oh, that's the weirdest part but like it is yeah, it is it is.
Speaker 3:I actually recently told my friends, if they ever change my name in their phone from Larson, I will. They just don't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get it it's unnecessary, yeah no, anyway yeah, because both of your last well, rachel, yours is cool, both of yours is cool. I was like, is it? It's a hyphen? Well, I meant like easy, whereas yours, what is yours?
Speaker 3:sarah trudnack yeah, so like that's what I meant. So like not easy yeah, not everyone is like how do you say that? And it's really just how it looks, but it's just a weird one um, you feel weird.
Speaker 2:People literally cannot pronounce merle smith to save their life it's including my weird one, because you feel weird saying it. People literally cannot pronounce.
Speaker 3:Merle Smith to save their life. What, including my husband, who's known you forever Right.
Speaker 2:So Merle Smith, my favorite is Merle Smith. Merle, it's like cute but like no.
Speaker 3:I'm going to be honest. When I first started dating Matt, I was not confident on how to even say his last name.
Speaker 1:And I didn't know how to ask him I just figured it out Because you feel dumb, saying Trudnack, trudnack.
Speaker 3:But that's how he will say it to other people, because he thinks it's easier.
Speaker 1:What but?
Speaker 3:I disagree. So how is it spelled? T-r-u-d-n-a-k.
Speaker 1:Okay, trudnack.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's such a Matt thing to do. Oh I know Mispronounce his own name.
Speaker 3:To like make it easier to help someone, but I think it makes it harder.
Speaker 2:Trude Mack should have an E in it.
Speaker 3:I agree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if it's Trude, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, true.
Speaker 1:Well, anyway.
Speaker 3:A riveting start.
Speaker 1:But Sarah, you just recently got married. Yes, rachel, you've been married. For how long it'll be? Five years in december. Five years in december, okay, I'm 30, sarah's 30, rachel, you're how?
Speaker 2:old 35, wow. So we're all from the same time period.
Speaker 1:I know grew up at the same time period in the same city we're in the same neighborhood in the same neighborhood. Oh yeah, lakeside, lakeside that's right yeah, right, have you guys walked around the lake in lakeside?
Speaker 3:not recently I would assume not the last time I did that. Lauren, I was probably with you to be honest.
Speaker 1:Well, they have upgraded it quite a bit.
Speaker 2:There's a path now right.
Speaker 1:That's nice, very nice.
Speaker 2:Because I remember being a kid and going to collect algae and put it under my microscope when I was like seven. That's really precious. That is really cute yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so since then you guys have always, even when I knew you guys, you all were close. Um, you know, some people are like they have siblings and they're like, yeah, that's my older brother, but I don't really you know whatever. But I remember, yeah, like you would pick Sarah up from stuff you guys had. You guys, I feel like, would make like videos a lot and like be like singing a lot and hanging out watching tv. We're really close and fun together.
Speaker 3:Rachel was so weirdly into me as a little sister more than any other older sibling I've maybe ever met of any of my friends or anyone like you were just like, you really wanted to hang out, just wanted to hang out, which was like awesome, yeah, you're so cool, thank you. But I mean, even when I wasn't that cool and even when I was more annoying than cool, you still, like, wanted me around, which is so cool.
Speaker 2:I don't know there's something about. I even look at you still like you're three and I just want to, like, take care of you. It's very maternal, very much, and I think it has a lot to do with our age difference, because we're five years apart. So so, like when Sarah was born, I was like a fully formed child and I didn't. You know, I think sometimes when kids are still dependent on their mother when they're two or three, there's jealousy there can be. I know, I know siblings that are really close in age and they're super tight too. I don't I'm not saying that's like a specific formula, but I think for me I just wanted to hang out with you, I wanted to take care of you. I just like I've always loved you so much yeah.
Speaker 3:No, it was very apparent and it was always like was it a lot?
Speaker 2:It sounds like I was like no, no, no, no, no, it's not that it was a lot.
Speaker 3:It's that I didn't realize it was like abnormal until I was in like other environments with some of my other friends and their siblings and it like wasn't like that and it's just like it felt really normal. But then as I got older I realized it was like very special and I mean it's a lot, but not in a bad way.
Speaker 2:I am a lot, I'm very intense. No, recently.
Speaker 3:I wish I could remember what it was, because it was you were just were offering to do something for me.
Speaker 2:I was going to buy you that thing in Savannah. You said you liked this like vase or something, do you remember?
Speaker 3:that? No, but was it something else? I do this, maybe I don't know, but I just was like Rachel, like calm down, and you're just like. I just have a blind spot when it comes to you and I'll just do anything.
Speaker 2:No, we were in Savannah for her bachelorette party and we were getting like really, really cute little wine shop and you just offhandedly, were like, oh, I love this. And I think it was like a dish or like it was something like a mug and it was like $45. And I was like, oh my gosh, let me get it for you. And you were like what the fuck? And then I looked to your friends who were there and I was like cause they all thought I was like being so ridiculous. And I was like you guys obviously like don't have a younger sister that you just want to give everything in the world to, which is how I feel I didn't buy her the mug.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was just like also not practical for travel.
Speaker 2:It was, it was insane. It was just not right. It wasn't right, it was insane.
Speaker 1:But then, sarah, did you look up, so she was obsessed with you. And then how did you feel about her?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I mean, I totally looked up to you. You were, you were sort of like. You just sort of felt like the golden child. You were very smart and very talented in athletics and in choir and in music and all the things and you were. You were like a lot to live up to. But then I just sort of flipped the script and I leaned into the. I leaned into other things, like just trying to be like funny and I don't know. I really leaned into being different when I got to a point where I was like, okay, I'm not going to be able to be the same, I'm not going to be able to be you, but I really wanted to be.
Speaker 1:What do you think are the biggest differences between your all's personalities, like when you?
Speaker 2:break it down. It's so funny because we are very similar yeah, I know on paper but definitely have big differences I know I'm much more of an extrovert than you yeah, you're just.
Speaker 3:I don't know you have a directness to you that's unlike anyone I've ever known. Taurus, you're just one of the most direct people ever and I don't think I have that. I think I'm a little bit. I'll like fade into the background a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like you are a little bit more reserved. I have no idea where my directness comes from, yeah, Cause I think also though I was not usually, I wasn't really this direct until after high school and college, Cause I used to be big people please their vibes. I also think that you I don't know if you would agree with this, but I think you have I think you have a lot more patience than me.
Speaker 3:I agree. I agree, cause I'm a pretty patient person, but I think you're patient with some things. I think you're patient in some ways, but I think you lose a little bit of patience, especially with those that you love, when they're not doing what you think is best for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a bit of a bull.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so maybe, sarah, you don't have as much attachment to other people's shit and the what they do. Yeah, and I think I can.
Speaker 3:I think I'm a little bit more able to in the moment. I think you can get there. But I think in the moment I'm a little bit more able to sort of step outside of what I think and into where they're at and sort of level with them a little bit more. And you know, I really try to understand people's journey and not step on that. I think maybe because for a and I think I'm that way now because for a lot of years I wanted people to just like back off of my life and we'll get into that. This is my early twenties, which was like a really hard time and it's so complex, because I needed you to continue to be there to say sort of like, what the fuck are you doing? Are you okay? In that time. But I still didn't want to hear it and I just wanted you to back off, respect where I was at, what I was doing, how I was figuring things out. I don't know. It's really interesting and I think I get kind of stubborn with myself.
Speaker 2:You definitely have that edginess or like that pushback, but I think our relationship works, because I don't care.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I continue because I love you so much. And the thing about me is that I'll push back.
Speaker 2:but I will internally know that you're right, but I just can't say sometimes I'm not right and I but I think also to what things Sarah's really helped me with is when I'm in those situations with with you know, maybe not understanding where someone's coming from, or you are like you need to, like stop. And you're pretty much the only person I'll listen to, like if my husband said that, I'd be like, yeah, get out yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how do you feel like you guys approach relationships differently? Sarah, how are you as a friend versus Rachel? How are you? I mean, we've kind of already talked about it, but so if Rachel's obsessed with people and loves them and wants to be around them and extroverted, then how do you handle friendship?
Speaker 3:So I have, I've discovered about myself. I have a big black cat personality. I really keep I mean my close people I'm close to, but I can also go days without speaking to my best friend, and it's doesn't matter where. I don't think you have that. It's a lot more ingrained in you to be the person that reaches out, be the person that touches base, Whereas I just like don't do that.
Speaker 1:Do you like alone time? Yes, so like what?
Speaker 3:kind of stuff do you do? Yeah, by yourself.
Speaker 1:I mean like, like, if you have a day, off and you're like, and you're like it's a free for all, I can do whatever today. What is it going to be normally?
Speaker 3:Well, definitely watch some. Tv, because I have said before TV is my passion and it's kind of a joke, but it's also kind of not. No, but I just I love just doing boring ass day-to-day shit by myself. I want to go run errands, but I don't want like people who grocery shop with their partners. Oh, it's awful. I've never understood anything less in my entire life. Yeah, it's, it's just crazy. It's. It's a lot. It's crazy. Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1:I also rarely want to go to target with a friend Never, no, no, I'll go with you yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's it to like a yoga class with a friend. No, thank you, I'll go with you though no, I don't want to like meet someone there like.
Speaker 2:I'm not going there to talk. No, it's that I also don't like to do that, and I'd like to see someone at a studio say hey and be like I'm like I'll be over here. But back to your question.
Speaker 3:I don't know. It's just like living life, I don't know. I think also, I have a really big aversion to people telling me what to do. People like like giving me a framework, and so when I don't have anyone around not that I'm being controlled, but even hey, I'm running out or hey, I'm going to go do this. That's my favorite thing yeah, my husband's going to listen to this and be like Sarah do you even like me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like I do when I want to hang out with you, but it's not going to be always and I just need time. Like I just need time, like I just need time.
Speaker 3:I always tell him like some of my favorite times. Obviously, some of my favorite times are also when we're doing stuff together, obviously, but sometimes a perfect night for me is just him doing his thing, me doing my thing. We're like in the same space, but we're just doing our own thing and I know, that we're around and I feel that presence there and that's all the comfort in the world sometimes. And you have gotten more that way as you've gotten older.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, you really come into your introvert, which has given us a new level of understanding, cause I think sometimes in the past you didn't get it.
Speaker 2:I hated being alone.
Speaker 3:Well, and you didn't get it. When I needed space from you, correct, and I didn't understand. And then when I.
Speaker 2:I just had so much FOMO about I don't even know what. It felt embarrassing to be alone. It felt embarrassing not to have plans. It felt why isn't anyone reaching out to me? Why doesn't anyone like me? Spiral, spiral, spiral, spiral. Covid actually really helped me come into introvert, because you're like everybody else is alone too Right and also like it's easy, like to look out, don't have plans on like a Friday night or something. Now I like love that, but that would be so devastating to me seven, eight years ago.
Speaker 1:It's so funny because I was just thinking about I had that happen to me like two weeks ago and I actually, for one, had energy and wanted to maybe hang out with somebody, and it was a Saturday night and I had worked really hard all week and I remember and I was feeling so weird. It's like where you want to lay in bed but you don't really, but nobody's called you, but you don't even know if you want them to call. But it feels so weird. But I knew if I got up and doing something I'd feel better. But I kind of wanted to feel sorry for myself a little bit because I didn't have any plans. And I used to go through that so much in my twenties. When you're in like shedding season, where like you don't need to be hanging out with or calling the guy season, I'm obsessed with that. I love that. Yeah, you don't call the guy that you know could fill the time right now. You just have to lay around in that weird feeling. I think it's a part of it.
Speaker 2:It's the uncomfy feeling, but now I am so comfortable because I don't have care. I don't care yeah.
Speaker 1:And I have tools now to of how to get out of that weird feeling Cause, then I would just be like everything sucks.
Speaker 2:But now I kind of know, and you feel bad for yourself, I totally understand that and then that is the worst, though, when you have energy. I really want to do something.
Speaker 3:And then the world. No, that exact same thing happened to me. It was a couple of Fridays ago and I Matt had been having a really hard day do something I was going to like wait till he had the mental capacity.
Speaker 2:but I was going to ask.
Speaker 3:But then he comes downstairs and he said, oh, the guys want to go play disc golf, Like, do you mind? Immediately just started crying because he didn't know that I wanted to hang out but I did and I was like you're just going to leave me here.
Speaker 3:I have a big like a weird friend complex too. I've always had a lot of friend insecurity. I don't really know why or where that comes from, cause, like, I've had a life full of a lot of love and a lot of like friendships. I don't know it's weird, but I just like get very attached to just my people and then when they're not there, I'm what do I do? Yeah? So anyway, he went to go play disc golf and then I made him meet me for dinner somewhere after, and it was fine but it was like literally it was fine, but I was like how dare you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, and it can feel like that especially so. When did you guys start to realize, like, did you guys ever have a have a point where you're like okay, we're different, we're going in different directions, Maybe we need? This is weird.
Speaker 2:It was definitely when you were in high school, because you just weren't telling me things. I've always had this like idyllic version of what a sisterhood is, but really it's what I want of a sisterhood where tell each other everything you just took sisterhood of the traveling pants really far.
Speaker 2:So far like too far honestly, but I wanted Sarah to tell me you know, the first time she got her heart broken like I wanted to. I took being a big sister so much and I didn't realize really I needed to listen to what you wanted. And this is a big, this is a huge character flaw of mine that I work on all the time. I mean it comes down to me not getting what I want or what I think is best, like I'm very headstrong. No, this is the right thing to do. This is it. I'm an earth sign.
Speaker 3:We're very much by the book, but it's also by our book. It's not by your book. You're like the most taurus, taurus I've ever known in my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're a two on the enneagram. And then, sarah, did you ever like nail down your?
Speaker 3:well, you were a two, but you're not I mean I often, when I need to just do some like self-exploration, I need to read a damn book and do it that way because I've got mixed reviews.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I do not know this is like a touchy subject.
Speaker 1:It doesn't have to work for you.
Speaker 2:I know her real rising sign. I just feel like I've had identity crisis after identity crisis starting with my miss housing in the Harry Potter universe. She used to be a Hufflepuff and now she's a Gryffindor. It's just been oneffindor and then I changed it, it was.
Speaker 3:it's just like been one thing after another but Gemini, no, seriously the personalities are just every corner.
Speaker 1:Um cause, what are your big three? Well, let's do that, since we don't have a number.
Speaker 3:We'll do top your big.
Speaker 1:I will say I most get to when I do test, when I do those kinds of things, I just do not align with a lot of it and that's why I I know, because to be honest, lauren, when people want me to help them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're like I'm like fuck off.
Speaker 2:No, it's not.
Speaker 3:It's not innate um no it's not and I guess I've it's innate. When it's like on my terms and like I want to do it and it's coming from me, when it is forced or asked or which is so, am I the worst like am I?
Speaker 2:okay, well, I think I have to say I just think you've been taken advantage of, yeah, 100%, greatly, and I think you have a bad taste in your mouth because you I mean, if you took that test when you were with, I'm gonna call him Voldemort yeah, of course you were a two because you literally were pouring everything into that relationship and helping I'm putting that in quotes because I don't even know what you were doing but you were trapped and you were like you were just literally giving, giving, giving, giving, giving.
Speaker 2:So I think, and that is a big part of your identity, I'm not going to say crisis, I'm going to say like rebirth, like rebranding, because that's not you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's not you at all. No, totally you know.
Speaker 2:You help me all the time you're a beautiful soul, thank you, but sometimes people are annoying, yeah and it's a lot to give.
Speaker 3:Yes, you know it does. It takes a lot out of me, but my big three. I'm a Gemini, sun, scorpio, moon, sag, rising fun, I know oh, it's very fun so. So for a long time it's just because I either my dad gave me my wrong birth time or I just heard it wrong. Yeah, um, for a long time I thought it was Scorpio moon and Scorpio rising.
Speaker 1:And I didn't really align with that.
Speaker 3:I didn't really align with that. And then I asked my dad one day and I was like what the fuck?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then it all, and then it made sense.
Speaker 1:It came together a lot more. Yeah, yeah, because I'm wondering if you're an eight or a five, but I feel like eight would make sense because I mean, do you are, do you like leading people and that type of thing or not?
Speaker 3:really, See, I don't think it's a like thing, but I do think that is where I naturally find myself like all the time yeah. I'm like just start, it just happens.
Speaker 1:It's interesting.
Speaker 3:Honestly because I just think people like take too long.
Speaker 1:I'm like what are you guys waiting for? Let's go, let's go, let's do it. Yeah, exactly what are we?
Speaker 3:waiting for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man. Well, if you ever figure it out, let me know.
Speaker 3:Because I'm very curious.
Speaker 1:Like oh, I would love to know. Because it is interesting. Why do you think that you were overly giving in a relationship? What do you feel like your history with relationships were? Do you think that it was from a place of feeling unworthy? And then that unworthiness is it that type of a thing?
Speaker 3:It's so interesting to think about, also beyond just just. I've always been like a girlfriend girl like I have had on and I don't love that about my love, like so glad to be married and to have found my person and all that. But I really don't have very. I don't really have any big large single chunks of just finding myself which I think I don't know. Sometimes I get in my head about it a little bit.
Speaker 1:I'm just like, yeah, well, cause everyone's like you need the single years, exactly, exactly. But anyway, I only single for single years cause I didn't find anyone Correct. Yeah, it's just, they just say that because society is just so weird.
Speaker 3:It just like gets in your head in a weird way. But uh, but yeah, I just, I think I always, just I always just need a validation. I just need a validation. I have a lot of you know everyone, for a million different reasons. I have a lot of self-confidence issues. I or I always have, I've always, I feel like I'm always working through that and so I always just just saw that validation.
Speaker 2:It's like an age old tale but it's really real, it's so real yeah.
Speaker 3:And I went to college with a boyfriend which I never recommend to people. I'm obviously not going to tell people how to live their lives, but I do. I regret.
Speaker 1:You only went to college to that college.
Speaker 3:No, no, no. I just kept my high school boyfriend, who lived here when I went to college, so I was just in a relationship. I was in a long-term relationship when I went to college, which really hindered everything. Yeah, everything, because you know, when you're that young seeing outside, of you know your relationship is your everything and all that.
Speaker 3:It's just. Life is so much bigger than that and I think you have to get older and live more to learn that. To learn that it's so much bigger than just who's telling you I love you at the end of the night Not that that's not important, but it's just. I missed a lot of years building and nurturing friendships. I missed a lot of years just having my own experiences for myself, which sucks.
Speaker 3:And then he cheated on me right, which like also sucked, and I was like, okay, what the fuck was this all for? I just wasted three years on you right, two of them being in college where I could have been like living my life. And then I'm a junior in college and I haven't built any of these friendships that you're supposed to build when you go to college. It's just such a mind fuck. And then I met Sam, who Rachel was calling Voldemort yeah, very soon after that three year relationship ended and it was just I don't know it was. I don't even know like what drew me to that, because it's very much nothing that would draw me in today.
Speaker 2:I just feel like a completely different person.
Speaker 3:I was just clearly in a very vulnerable, weak then.
Speaker 1:I was with him for six years yeah, and I think too the thing of when you first fall in love with the person you fall in love with in high school. That is the first time ever feeling that strong of a feeling you've never felt before so any type of feeling so of course you're obsessed with it and you want it forever and you only remember. It's like addictive.
Speaker 3:It is addictive completely and it just becomes all-encompassing, and so I think I just was always chasing that, and then I just fell into something that was very quickly at first fun and exciting, and then it quickly got comfortable, and then it quickly got manipulative and dangerous.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, Rachel, what did you think when her boyfriend that she had done all this stuff with and spent her college years with? What did you think when he cheated on her? How did you?
Speaker 2:feel I was just like this fucking dude. I don't know, I was so everyone should have seen it coming I know I they probably did looking back, tim looks like a saint I know he was such a sweetheart. I know. I need to say too that I was. I feel guilty about this sometimes. I was in new york this time really into what I was doing and, of course, course, I was still checking in with Sarah, but I feel like I wasn't there for you.
Speaker 3:Well, to be honest with you, I probably wouldn't have shared a lot, because I think for a long time, even before I graduated high school, I don't think I was like doing things that I wasn't particularly proud of, but I was like still doing them. So like I'm not going, to talk to you about it when shit gets hard, because I'm embarrassed of what brought me here in the first place.
Speaker 2:Right and I think this was like a weird kind of part in our relationship where we didn't talk about that kind of stuff. It was more coming home from the holidays together having fun. We would go on like family trips together, have fun there. But it really wasn't until I moved back or I guess when I went to grad school, I don't know I or I guess when I went to grad school, I don't know, I was like really doing my own thing for a while. But I knew pretty immediately that Sam wasn't.
Speaker 1:I knew he was bad news and I I've been worried. I was worried about him from day one. So what were his? What were the things that we were? This isn't the vibe on paper. What were his red flags?
Speaker 2:well, the reason I hated him from the beginning is Sarah came to a wedding with me and I was gonna stay with them and and he said that's weird, you can't stay with us. So I had to find a place to stay and I was like what the hell?
Speaker 3:And the thing about that whole situation. Now I would, if anyone said that I would just be, you can find a seat yourself, a hotel, like what are you talking about? Yeah, I just like, did not have the strength and. I was with and you were very, I don't know.
Speaker 2:And I couldn't read it at first. I was like what? It was very confusing to me. Why? Because you weren't really like that with Tim. You were just sort of like whatever with him.
Speaker 3:No, it was just dumb. It was like fine, yeah, it was whatever.
Speaker 2:But you know, when you just get a bad vibe from somebody, the minute I met him I was like you are a psychopath. I just he scared the hell out of me from the beginning because I think at that point I'd been dating in New York and I had just sort of gotten out of this. It was just like this stupid few month long relationship. But this guy was pretty manipulative too and I and I just had been kind of caught up in that kind of thing. And then when I met Sam, he was never very nice. You know when people have humor or dark humor, but it's actually mean, it's not dark humor. You know what I mean when you're saying something at someone's expense or something like that. Like I just continuously saw him bringing Sarah down all the time and he hated me from the beginning because, because he's, because I because I think I challenged him and I was like you're.
Speaker 2:So what? I didn't fall for whatever he was trying to pull and I truly did not know what the fuck to do yeah, it makes sense and I can't even I can't imagine what you went through yeah, what do you feel like, sarah?
Speaker 1:what did the relationship give you, even if, if it was delusional?
Speaker 3:Even if you know that wasn't true at the time?
Speaker 1:What do you think you felt it gave you, even if, again, it was not happening, that's?
Speaker 3:such an interesting question. Yeah, it is, because it's hard to even put myself back there. It gave me a lot of friends. I met a lot of people who are still my core people through him.
Speaker 3:True, and because of those people I met is also the job that I have. He didn't give me anything, but he introduced me to a lot of people and a lot of things that I love. That's when I started going to a lot of shows and a lot of festivals and that's when I started going to see fish and that's when I like. So a lot of those things came out of it, which I'm very grateful for, like a weird tangential way, and I guess it felt like not stable in like an emotional way, but for a time it felt stable in a life way, and I don't know that didn't last very long because I don't know, it's just like it's so messy to think about and it's so foreign because the minute it ended I was like what the fuck have I been doing?
Speaker 3:yeah like what the fuck have I been doing? But I was so ashamed of everything and I didn't want to and just like averse to failure. That's why I didn't end it myself or come home sooner, when I knew that I always could right. It's not that I like didn't have a place to land either. That's why I just I just got so frustrated with myself because it's just what were you doing? Like, what were you doing? You were trapped. I guess you have to like.
Speaker 2:I know it's so easy to like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it's also. I was not being met with a, he wasn't keeping me in that space. I could, I could have left. That's when I get mad at myself.
Speaker 1:Do you hate change? Yeah. Do you feel like you kick the can down the road in a lot of situations? 100%, yeah. What do you think it is that? What do you think about it that you don't like?
Speaker 3:I think it's just like discomfort, and if I don't know what to expect, I don't know how to do something in the best way, and we share this. I am so scared of looking or seeming stupid to people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too. I do not want to look dumb Like just yo, seriously, I can't handle it.
Speaker 3:So if I don't know what to expect and I don't know how to succeed, I am going to avoid it at all costs. Yeah, me too. I'm trying to like change that about myself, because it's okay to fail.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 3:It's like totally fine, people do it literally all the time. I know.
Speaker 1:It's like so silly I know, and think about all the things, the cool things we could do in life if we were just okay with failing.
Speaker 3:No, but I listened to a podcast recently I think it was an episode of armchair expert and he had on a psychologist who specializes in narcissism and narcissistic behavior and he's just, he's just a textbook narcissist.
Speaker 1:Well, and you said it too yeah, and you said it too like shame keeps people stuck a thousand percent, and so the shame of. I come from a nice family, my parents love me, my sister's so special and fantastic and sweet and everyone loves her, and I went to college and then that didn't really. This boyfriend didn't work out, and now I'm with this guy and maybe to being able to compartmentalize to where it's like that's not really happening. Yeah, that's, that's who I come home to and stuff. But I can manage. But I can just be out in the world with my job and my friends, and I don't know if that felt true, but it?
Speaker 3:yeah, no, it did. But I also, especially the friend thing I didn't meet. I mean, I had you and even though that time was different, you were still probably my closest person during that time yeah, we were still very close still super close, but I didn't meet my adult best friend, kelly, until during that time, and after that time is when we've gotten really close.
Speaker 3:so now I just think about it. I didn't even have that, thankfully. You know, this was pre-covid for the most part, so I went to work every day and I left the house and I had things outside going on, which was really good, thank God, because now I just work from home and it's just my life is in my home, and that would be so much harder. But anyway, yeah, no, you're so right about shame. It's just so hard to admit and it's so hard to face. It's just hard to be vulnerable. I don't like seeming vulnerable in front of other people. It just feels very scary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it makes a lot of sense and what you've said too, is that when I was like talk? About being direct.
Speaker 2:I talked to you many times about how you should not be with him, in as delicately as I could say, but I think a lot of times with shame. It's like knowing someone is right or knowing knowing the truth. Yeah, this is bad, but I don't know how to be okay, to say I fucked up, or like I shouldn't be doing this. It's so difficult, yeah, it's really hard, but it's so interesting to me, though, because from my perspective, you had everybody rooting for you and everybody would have been there for you. Yeah, right, but even then I can see you.
Speaker 3:Right now You're uncomfortable with that, yeah, cause I'm like I don't want to be, I don't I. I like to be the center of attention sometimes, and not in that way, Of course I like, do not like that kind of spotlight.
Speaker 2:Because then it feels embarrassing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, cause everyone's like tiptoeing like are you okay? How are you?
Speaker 2:doing today she's like I'm fine.
Speaker 3:I feel like you're not. Yeah, yeah, I don't know I am. I confuse myself sometimes. This is maybe this is one of the many two faceted parts of being a Gemini. I feel like I simultaneously have so many walls up, but also can be so unguarded as well, and I also love when people take their walls down with me, like I love when people are vulnerable with me. I feel really like honored in that space and I think I'm really good at helping people when they're in that space, but it just feels really uncomfy when I'm not ready to open that door. Yeah, and that's what a lot of that chapter felt like. Yeah, but I will never forget when it finally did end and I packed up me and Ellie drove home. That night you were at mom's and this was like during. This was like in the thick of COVID in 2020, so it was I don't know if we can hug, but we're gonna hug anyway kind of vibe and I went over there and you had the best little care package basket.
Speaker 3:I went to Target and, just like, got everything that I thought would help yeah, including but not limited to the, the Twilight book that had come out from Edward Cullen's perspective. So, like you, really just full spectrum, like great. And yeah, I just never looked back, I just had immediately luckily you were living in Winchester at the time that also was like such a savior and that I feel like was the first day of this chapter that we've been in for the last. What year is it? Four years.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Almost to the day. It's really crazy to think about, cause I don't know if either of you guys have chapters of your life that you literally feel like a different human being.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God yeah.
Speaker 2:But, that's how that feels. It's even hard for me to remember. It's so weird Cause it was so awful, yeah, and it feels so foreign to me.
Speaker 3:Well, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:You were so I don't even know how to describe it. Like in a little cave. Sounds so dumb to be like you blossomed, but truly, I mean it does sound dumb, but it's very true. Yeah, how did it look when you, rachel, were like dude? You got to stop doing this. Was it text messages? Was it phone calls? Was it.
Speaker 2:All of those and I, I sometimes I think I did it well. How often was it? Did you have?
Speaker 1:times where you guys, I'm not gonna say anything, I'm gonna let her live her life. And also, how did it affect you as a person living day-to-day in your life, worrying, feeling sick about it, all those types of things?
Speaker 2:I'm trying not to cry.
Speaker 2:It was horrible and I felt like I was the only one who was saying anything dad was too right, barely he did dad has his own ways totally, and I I got where they were coming from, because also, too, it's sort of like when you're talking with an addict or something, they can only, you can only get yourself out of it, you know. But I just felt like god, if I was in this situation and no one was talking to me, I knew that, that I didn't want to, I didn't want to stay silent and then cause, I wanted like receipts of like you know, but it was just specific times twice on the phone, once you hung up on me actually both times you hung up on me.
Speaker 3:I legitimately don't remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't remember what was her response.
Speaker 2:Normally, oh, ghosting, or was it defensive On the phone, very defensive.
Speaker 1:Defending him or her actions.
Speaker 2:Both yeah and and then hanging up on me and I don't know if I necessarily handled it the best way, because I would go over this every all the time in my head how can I, how can I get through to her? And then text messages seem to work better, because then you could absorb the information and those. But I would still get the same response of like I still have a lot of love for him. Thank you for your concern, kind of stuff, and I was just well.
Speaker 3:It's also just disgusting to think about, just to peel back the veil a little bit. He was always incredibly uncomfortable with me talking to you or anyone in the family about what was going on. I know he definitely would take my phone and look at my shit which is so gross, like really, yeah, dude, I'm not surprised.
Speaker 2:Like it was just not a safe environment for me to be vulnerable and totally open 100%.
Speaker 3:Um just awful. No, it's terrible.
Speaker 2:Disgusting, no, I know, and so I think there was one incident in person where Robbie and I took you out to brunch and you that was the most honest I think you ever were with us. You said something that sometimes I think of just taking Ellie and escaping or something like along those lines, and I remember Robbie and I were like do it. And like, yeah, I mean, he was a textbook narcissist. He would act horribly in front of me, he would treat you like dirt and then he would send a million sappy, stupid, fucking apology texts the next day. You know what I mean? It's that classic kind of abuser language of oh, like I had too much to drink last night, and it's just. I felt like I was in this position where I was so scared that our relationship was going to end or he was going to take her away from me, which I'm proud of you for not letting that happen, because I feel like that could have. I'm serious, cause he hated me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but also I mean I've said this before for all of the awful and dangerous things he was and he was all those things, he had very little follow through. I know you have said that your face right now. He was never gonna, because before the wedding you're like do you think he's gonna like show up at your wedding?
Speaker 2:I was like no, no, I was so scared, not, I was freaked out he is all talk and no action yeah, no, it's, it's true, because he was even at my wedding because Xander, xander put his foot down.
Speaker 2:He's like I don't want that man at my, at at our wedding, and I was like I can't do that. My sister and I, you were so important to me, I didn't want to add another thing to your plate to deal with. I was like I don't want her to have to fucking deal with that. Yeah, he was disinvited for like a few days and then I just was like that's not worth it, I don't care. Fine, I also barely saw him, but I remember I had to.
Speaker 2:I mean all the bartenders like had pictures of him like we had like really, yeah, good, because I was just really scared and like I talked to, because what would happen? Would he drink too much? Yeah, was that the problem?
Speaker 1:yeah, and I just I would have nightmares, drinking would, I would have nightmares that he was laughing during my ceremony and stuff like that, because he just hated me he hated me so strongly and I was like he's just gonna be mean the scary thing, though, about you know, narcissists or people like that, or I mean, obviously I'm not like a mental health professional, so I'm not trying to diagnose him with anything.
Speaker 3:It wasn't all the time right.
Speaker 1:He had a really interesting on off switch like this trauma that made you feel bad for him. Did he have trauma?
Speaker 3:that made we I guess, don't?
Speaker 1:you don't have to say his trauma made you feel bad, but did he have a trauma that made you feel bad for him or not? Like soft spots of them? That only you get.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of his behavior was an example set for him by his parents.
Speaker 1:Okay, gotcha Like they acted the same way and that sort of thing, yeah.
Speaker 3:And again, like I you know I had, I certainly had a view for a large chunk of time, but I'm not trying, I'm not an expert, I'm not in their family.
Speaker 1:I'm not trying to like, of course.
Speaker 3:I don't know, it's just more than anything. It just took such a big chunk of such like a what should have been such a fun time in my life. Mostly, I'm just pissed off that he took my entire early twenties from me, of course, and it's just. I'm not going to get that back, cause you were just like living in like I was literally living in like a shack in Christiansburg, virginia, like it was hell. It was a literally hell, totally terrible. And I just was working shitty jobs and I didn't have any money.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's another big thing is that I didn't have. I didn't feel like I had money to go out on my own and until I started my job at Firefly in 2019, I wasn't working a job that I could take home Totally. I was like working in restaurants. I was working at jobs where I had to go there. I didn't have an option to just stop and like start over it felt like really hard.
Speaker 3:It felt debilitating, like what was I going to do? Come home to Winchester and go back and work at the espresso bar like love the espresso bar. But I wasn't. I don't want to.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to do that. I wasn't going to do that.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it was just a time of feeling so fucking stuck. It sucked. Yeah, it really sucked, and I'm so sorry for keeping you at such an arm's length. That just must've been really hard. I remember after all, this sort of ended and we came out of it a little bit. You shared with me that you can remember cause you were there. But Xander just said something like your sister's actually really cool. No, xander hung out before.
Speaker 2:He was like who is that? Cause he saw how hard I was trying to. He's like. He says now he's like oh, you got the sisterhood you've always wanted as like a joke, because I was trying so hard to be there for you and you just weren't ready. Yeah for it. You know which, looking back, I get, and also I'm sorry that I was pushing no, it was good, someone needed to.
Speaker 2:I know, but it was someone needed to like remind me that yeah it's hard, I don't know it's, so it is hard but I think at the end of the day, this is so real and sometimes people we love are just taken away. Sounds like very dramatic, but I mean, people go through phases in life where you know you were doing your best, man, and you were trapped, you were stuck because, yeah, you had to work, you had to be an adult, you know, and and it seemed probably too complicated to try to figure out, and I think everybody can relate to this too you just get, yeah, rinse and repeat or like a it's like you're just getting through the days.
Speaker 2:You're getting through the days and I think probably sometimes, maybe in the beginning, you were like, oh, he'll change, because he was masterful at saying sorry. And that can be addictive too, of somebody you know saying sorry and out and out pouring of love after something so horrible, and then your expectations are just subzero, basically, and I really do understand and I think that from my perspective. I remember when you guys moved in together I was like, wow, I'm such a failure of a big sister, I'm just single, and she's like I was jealous, which is so weird to think about.
Speaker 3:When then? When you move in together, everything gets more complicated, because then just the such simple terms, then all your shit is co-mingled and then moving out becomes a whole different thing, because you have to get out, unmingle your shit like I don't know, of course I tried to leave once and then you tried to leave once. Yeah, I came home when I was like it was awful oh, and mom and dad were there yeah.
Speaker 1:Dang.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's pretty wild. So what was the?
Speaker 3:final straw that you were like all right, I got to roll, so I didn't. I will always say and give him credit he is the one that ended things, because he was you're a better person, you don't deserve this, and he's right. Yeah, and he's correct. Right, yeah, and he's correct. It's the best thing he ever did, 1000%, and I do. I do feel genuine thankfulness for him for that, because I did not have the strength to leave, yeah, so yeah, he just was like this is have to get out because you need to live a better life than this, and I took the dog and I moved home.
Speaker 1:And then what happened after that in terms of so what?
Speaker 3:yeah, this is like the fun part that like makes me really happy to think about. I mean it was a couple of weeks of of like hard stuff up here and I like I said Rachel had moved up here. So she and Xander were living in downtown Winchester. I was living at my parents' house but spending most Rachel's like move in here and I was. You are a newlywed, you just got married like six months ago. Like I'm, not, I'm not moving into your newlywed home. That's not. That's inappropriate.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, I was like that's just too much. Yeah, we just hung out so much. You just took me under your wing. We just me and Xander just became like the three musketeers.
Speaker 2:And it was the best.
Speaker 3:Drink a lot of wine.
Speaker 2:Drink a lot of wine.
Speaker 3:It was COVID. It was great, Suddenly life just felt really. It's like the clouds cleared.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a healing time.
Speaker 1:What did you or have you done with some of the anger and some of the feeling like my 20s were taken, some of the harder emotion that comes with that? How does that I'm?
Speaker 3:still like working through it, because it just kind of hits me in waves sometimes. My life has never been better than it is now. And also the thing that they don't tell you is that your early twenties are also really hard. Yeah, cause you're just figuring out how to be a grownup. You don't really have any money. You're just kind of building all this stuff. At the end of the day, that hard part was just made a little bit harder, I guess. So maybe I'm just trying to flip the script in my head, maybe I'm just trying to change my mindset, but I don't know. I just I really just have to tell myself that I just have to not be too hard on myself. Yeah, I, more than anything, I just still now I just deal with a different kind of shame that I didn't get myself out sooner and that I didn't Cause. It's just, I'm angry at myself because, like I knew that I was worth more than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:Even if I forgot sometime in the heat of the moment or whatever I knew, at the end of the day, mom and dad set such an amazing example of a relationship for us. You and Xander also. You guys have had such a journey together. You guys have really worked to be what you need to be for each other. I had all of these good examples and I just have to give myself grace that I didn't realize that sooner. Yeah, and I work on that every single day.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And also me and Matt. Uh well, we had known each other, but we like connected. Um, what month was that? I guess it was. Yeah, it was like a month and a half, six, seven weeks or so after I moved home, which is very fast. Yeah, but also I had been so checked out of that previous relationship for so many years that I think that's a real. Sometimes I'm like did I like move too fast? I mean, I'm married, it doesn't matter now, but it's just.
Speaker 2:You were done. You were ready to be happy. Yeah, I was ready to be happy, and then I was finally with someone who loved me and wanted to.
Speaker 3:I don't know, it's just suddenly. I was just wrapped in a relationship filled with so much love, and I think that is also what has helped so much, because it was an immediate reminder of oh, this is what you deserve to feel like and deserve to be treated like, and I shared with him all the stuff I had been through and just listened with very open ears and open arms, and he's just the best.
Speaker 1:He's the best. He's like the literal best, so he's amazing. Yeah, I mean I can definitely share the same thing that you did. I did the same thing in my early 20s. I was back and forth in a relationship that I should not have been a part of that my sister was like dude, come on, like dude, come on my parents really do.
Speaker 1:Come on. Everybody's like dude, come on, but when you're in it it's. I can't explain it, but a part of me like, so I get the the shame. Sometimes I feel kind of like I'll look through my camera roll and know that I was low-key, doing weird shit like during that time and I feel weird about it and just all of it is.
Speaker 1:It's a really I don't know.
Speaker 1:It shapes your life in a weird way, 100%, and I do think it gives me compassion towards other people, kind of what you were sort of like hinting at with patients, with people's journeys, because I'm like, I'm not them.
Speaker 1:I know what it's like to not be making any sense in my choices. I know what it's like to be in a situation that you shouldn't be in, but sometimes you just have to go through it, and it's just like you have to learn it on your own. It's all part of it, and I don't know why it happens. I think, though, like with you were saying people's words, like once they do this crazy shit, it's unbelievable, like the things they say, the way they act, the way they drank, the way it all was, and then the next day it's the other extreme and they're saying all this nice shit, saying that you are their whole world and that you mean everything to them. It's just such whiplash that it gets way too exhausting to even feel like leaving or doing anything about it Leaving for you or for me, just cutting ties, or it just becomes a whole thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's just not enough emotional availability to take care of yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's no way. And then when you do get breaks, though, it's like little by little, you start building little like self-confidence or little things, whether it's like at work or with friendships or routines, and then eventually it's yeah, it's like you were saying, you're like I knew this wasn't going to be my whole life, like I knew I had more self-worth than that, and same for me. I knew I wasn't gonna do that forever. But you kind of have to play with it when you're in it and it sucks. But to have somebody in your life so that when you are in that moment where you're like I don't think this is right, I think this feels wrong, I don't think I deserve this, and then you have that in your mind of my sister said it's not right and I don't have to do this. It is helpful. Even if you're not listening, we all do. Still there. Yeah, we do need somebody to be like. Hello, by the way, if you ever want to get out, remember you can. I told you so. Yeah, I can totally relate to that.
Speaker 2:It's funky, that's so fascinating because your sister's quite a bit older than you, right?
Speaker 1:My sister's, 15 years older than me.
Speaker 2:Right, wow, but you guys are super tight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're really, really tight and got tighter after I was done with my shenanigans. Interesting my family healed me. I was just saying that the other day I was like my family, like my nieces, my sister, us all being together and in family, and now my boyfriend is with my family all the time. You guys are all together, everything's pieced together.
Speaker 3:I was driving from. I went to my mom's this morning and I was driving from Winchester to Stephen City and I was just looking around at these roads that I've just looked at forever and God damn it. I never thought I'd say it, but I just have to move back so that we're all close together.
Speaker 2:I will die.
Speaker 3:I, just I. My heart is where you are. Oh my God, and that's just like what I've learned since 2020. And I know that Richmond is we said as Richmond is, I mean obviously wish I lived next door, but Richmond, if it were like an even an hour closer, it would be a little bit better. Yeah, and it's not that far Like it's very doable in the grand scheme of things but it just feels so far.
Speaker 3:But ever since living here in 2020 and then just having our line just like so much closer and more open, especially with Xander and Matt being so close, and all that.
Speaker 2:It's just, it's really special and it also just feels like it's just my. You know, when you're just reflecting on the things you hate about yourself, I felt like I was pushing you or forcing you to cause. I knew you loved me and knew that you wanted a relationship, but I felt so in the state of being annoying or too much, always wanting to check in. And now I feel like our relationship I was actually thinking about this yesterday. We literally sat in silence for 30 minutes yesterday in our drive, just listening, and I was like this is the best and that's exactly how I feel. I feel completely at peace with our friendship, with our relationship, with our sisterhood, because I feel like both of us are getting out of it exactly what we need.
Speaker 2:Because things seemed like really, really unbalanced for a while, I think on both ends. Right, it was, I was in the mothering, trying to help you get out of something, or you were in the. You've also done that for me. You've been like really there for me, but then it feels icky if someone's only there for you and then but you're going through a hard time it can feel like really, really weird and right now it just feels. And for the past three, four years. It's just felt really solid.
Speaker 1:It's just been the best do you guys have ever have moments now where I don't agree with what she's doing or that chick's being annoying or anything like that, I mean?
Speaker 2:no, I don't know. Nothing serious, nothing, serious nothing beyond.
Speaker 3:One of my favorite things that we've established is that there is, unless it's like an emergency and will indicate otherwise, there's never any pressure to answer the phone. Oh my God, I know Like you'll call me 15 times a day, and sometimes that's the only time when I'm just like I just don't have capacity for this right now.
Speaker 2:I've never called you 15 times in one day.
Speaker 3:Let me just set the record straight. She's like it was three, but then it was five.
Speaker 2:No, but you call me a lot too, and I think that no, but it's just like there's never any pressure no, it's.
Speaker 2:and even sometimes I'll answer the phone and I'm like dude, I can't, or like can we text? Yeah, I can't. I literally can't force the energy to talk to someone right now. Yeah, no, and that is really really nice. All the pressure's off, when before, if you would have said that to me, I would have spiraled about it, had hurt feelings and been insane. Yeah, but now I. It comes back to confidence, though, and like that's my friend. Insecurity, like why don't they want to talk? Like that's on me, and I still deal with that because I am intense, I love really intensely and I sometimes people are just like this is like not it for them. Yeah, and I've now, I'm still working on it, but I can accept that, and before it felt really icky.
Speaker 1:Well, now too, you know that she's healthy and safe and fine too. That's a big part of it. When she wasn't hitting you back, when you knew she was unwell. It probably caused even more spiraling of like oh my God. Well, I wonder what's going on. Is it are they okay? Da, da, da, da da. Where is it now? It's not really hopeless, yeah.
Speaker 2:And also negativity in your life and how it permeated into our family.
Speaker 2:Just really felt for you in that living in that it felt so dark, yeah, dark, cloud, dark, you know, just that's how the colors felt. It felt really, really difficult and dark and I just I'm so happy that you're with Matt. I mean, he's just such a goofball but such a happy, positive presence and I do think that when you surround yourself with as much positivity whether that's like your positive outlook or choosing to be happy or see glass half full versus glass half empty I really think it makes a big difference.
Speaker 2:I totally agree Completely, because I think you can really get super down on the dumps. If you're just down on the dumps and around people that will just see the negative, kind of. Like you were saying earlier, lauren, just a shedding season, I feel like that was a big deal for you. You know, in this late 20s vibe you've really found people that lift you up and you've reconnected with people, too, that continue to lift you up. You've disconnected with some people that don't do that for you and I thought that's a huge part of growing up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, totally, I Totally. I feel like growing up is just learning that you don't have to please everyone all the time. You don't have to have everybody in your life that's ever been in your life. You can really just pick and choose those things and people that do provide that. I only want people and things in my life that gives me energy to live.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think it takes a minute it takes those 10 years to finally be like. I know what I like, I know who's going to make me feel good, I know what to look out for, I know what my non-negotiables are and it's all worth it, you know. So celebrating that it ended up like you got out of the relationship and that everything's on the other side, because some people never do and it is kind of badass to be like shoo that was a doozy, we're out, it's just it's.
Speaker 1:It is bad-ass, though, cause I know you still carry a lot of shame about it, and, if you can, let it go I know it's hard, but feel free whenever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know, it's hard to feel the bad-ass part.
Speaker 1:I don't know why. Is it because it wasn't your choice? So you feel? Like maybe you're like well, M did, I really do it. Because I got he told me to go.
Speaker 3:I didn't have this big moment 100% I know I've definitely talked about that before Like that's another badge of shame that I wear. I couldn't even get myself out. What the fuck.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean it's all. It's sort of quitting a job rather than being fired. Maybe you wanted to leave the job regardless, but you didn't do it on your terms Exactly.
Speaker 1:But you didn't date another guy just like that. Right after What'd you say? You didn't date another guy like that right after.
Speaker 3:So that shows that you broke the pattern. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It's so weird, it's so complicated.
Speaker 2:It is. But you now we've actually even talked about this you have literally 0% amount of time for that relationship for him or any of that. But you can reflect upon it and talk about it now. But I've even said to you what would you do if you saw him in person and you're like I don't even fucking care. Yeah, I wouldn't do anything, exactly Because it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:You're not holding on, it is.
Speaker 2:I think you're holding onto the anger at yourself. You don't care about him. I genuinely don't. I genuinely don't, and I am so far.
Speaker 3:It was deeply traumatic and I shed a lot of tears about it during it, after it all that. But it's so fascinating to get to a place where you feel so far removed from it emotionally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't know.
Speaker 3:I think that could totally be a defense, like it totally could be a defense mechanism, but maybe it's both, maybe it's both and I don't care, because it's working pretty well for me, because I genuinely feel just that I have risen above it. Yeah, and sometimes I know you still carry a lot of feelings about it, and I know mom does too and all that, and we'll talk about it sometimes and you guys will still get emotional and that's so touching and I understand why you feel that way. But, like you have to know that I don't carry any of that anymore.
Speaker 2:No, I know.
Speaker 3:And I just don't. It's not worth my energy or time Right, because life is good.
Speaker 2:Of course, and I and he doesn't deserve any of our energy. No, and I have to remind myself of that because I hold so much anger still in my heart for him, which is such a waste of my time, and I've really tried to work through it. I think it will just take me a few more years. I do because it was.
Speaker 1:I mean, it was like overwhelmingly heartbreaking, it was horrible. And you know, I went to April and we were talking about I had a.
Speaker 2:I just went to her the other week, did you?
Speaker 1:First, I love her. Shout out to April.
Speaker 2:That's our Reiki girl. I know Sarah needs to go too, yeah.
Speaker 1:We're going to email her together.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm going to email her today with you sitting next to me. I can't wait.
Speaker 1:And we were talking about a situation where I was feeling really, really angry about a friend and their relationship and I was like I just feel so angry, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, well, feel into your body, where do you feel it? And I was like my heart. She's like, well, maybe it's because it breaks your heart that this was happening to your little sister that you love so much and that you just wanted to take care of.
Speaker 2:So the anger is still there, because anger is really just sadness. You know, I mean I'm teary, I mean I'm instantly transported back to how I felt.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Helpless, so fucking sad. Yeah, so irrational, no, rationally angry.
Speaker 1:It's rationally angry.
Speaker 2:It's hard. Aries, moon, don't fuck with me. I will actually end you. I could not believe. I could not believe that this man had the audacity. Yeah, you know, that was the thing I was really. You got some balls on you to do, you know, but I felt so helpless because I also didn't want to embarrass you further.
Speaker 2:It's so twofold right. There's so many things, but I know that's on me. I've actually talked with my husband a lot about it, because he also shares a lot of anger and feelings about it, because it was really during our relationship that he was I mean, he's in a lot of pictures, memories, you know all that stuff but he has worked through it a little bit more and he's helped me kind of be like who cares yeah, like not who cares. But you're right, he doesn't deserve any ounce of my time or energy. I think it's just an old wound that's just taking a little bit of time to heal, because I feel like I failed you. I think that's like. I think that's like it. Right, I tried so hard, but I'm like I should have tried harder.
Speaker 3:Well, I hate that you're carrying that on your shoulders, because it's in no way your responsibility, I know.
Speaker 2:But I and I'm working, I'm trying to, I'm trying to work through it. Yeah, but I was so worried about you, yeah, and you know, with my anxiety, like worry is big for me, right, it ruminates and and I I don't even know if it's like I don't think about this daily, but I think it's still.
Speaker 3:I think it literally sounds like you're thinking about this at all hours of the day.
Speaker 2:No and I do not, but it's.
Speaker 1:So I'm saying there's an emotional trigger every time you think about it it brings you right back there, and that's what it is, because it's still somewhere in my body yeah, you're like you bring it up and it's like tears.
Speaker 2:I'm like I'm like there, you know, yeah, so that's what it is, you know, and we don't talk about it because we don't need to talk about it, because it's done yeah but this conversation is just sort of reminding me of. You know, I think a lot of people with family members they love can probably really relate to this.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Feeling like you want to help, or you want to make someone's decision for them because you know that they're in danger, or, but not. I'm sure your sister felt the same way.
Speaker 1:sure, yeah, and I felt that with other people it's the I mean, it's my lesson, that I've talked about it before and I'll probably talk about it forever, and I feel like I'm just now sort of really I mean, it'll probably be an issue forever which is just understanding the fact that I can't make anyone do anything. I know, can't control anybody, whether it's good or bad or whatever. I don't know why, as human beings, we aren't taught when we're young hey, sis, you can't change anyone.
Speaker 3:So that boyfriend that friend, that family member, it's like you can't do anything.
Speaker 1:I promise you, all you have control over is you. Yeah, it's so hard, but it's. It comes up for me all the time in small ways and big ways and I feel like I've just now started to really release and let people like live their journeys Like we were talking about. But it doesn't make it any less hard.
Speaker 2:It sucks Especially when they're hurting or in a situation that could potentially become, I mean, I would spiral into all different kinds of intrusive thoughts about what she was going through. Yeah, whether that was true or not, you know that's not for whatever, I don't want to talk about that. But yeah, controlling someone for sure, wanting them to do what's best for them, absolutely. But then when there's the added layer of I think they're going to get hurt emotionally, physically, whatever that makes the stakes 10 times higher.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, yeah, and I think another thing I just realized too, to add to that was I want to stop other people's suffering Totally, kind of, so that it stops my suffering. If I really break it down because I'm uncomfortable, I feel bad for them, if they stop hurting, then I won't feel bad anymore and then yay, life's good again. Oh, I mean like absolutely.
Speaker 2:I am making this about myself, whether we realize it or not.
Speaker 1:Both are true, it's like I, number one, feel horrible for you. You're suffering. I know you're not okay, you know, but then I'm acting like you can't handle your own suffering.
Speaker 2:I've done a lot of work with this. When you say I'm worried about someone, well, I don't think you can handle it. I don't think you can do it.
Speaker 1:And sometimes I don't think they can. Yeah, let's be real. Like sometimes I really do the way you're handling this. You're not handling it well. I don't think you got this, but end of the day, they are going to get it on their own way.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, and letting go of that. That's been a huge lesson for me through motherhood, through just becoming an adult. But you're so right, just taught in elementary school, day one yeah, by the way, no one's going to change, and it's so true because time and time again. But I can change him or I'll change my relationship with whoever.
Speaker 1:And then someone gives us a little inch that makes it look like there may be going in the direction that we want them to and all of a sudden we think we've got control of the whole thing now when we're fooling ourselves. I mean, you even think of like little kids that play with other little kids and boss them around and want them to play just how they want to play.
Speaker 2:You know we always want to control our experiences other people suffering, all the things 100% yeah, and I think that going back to it's just been a really healing few years for you and for our family, um, and that's been really lovely.
Speaker 2:And sometimes I look around at you know you're in this beautiful new marriage. I love my husband. Our, our parents are in retirement. We have a baby. I'm like damn, this is way too good. But then I'm like no, we deserve it because we went through hell for years. And I totally agree, cause sometimes I'm like this is too good, yeah, but I'm like, yeah, it's fucking great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause life can be fun and cool and awesome.
Speaker 2:And there's still hardships.
Speaker 3:There's still death and stuff you know it's the hardships that you find when your life solidifies into the goodness that it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:It's not that like what we were going through before, which is like not you know, what is it, what is normal, but it didn't feel someone coming into our family and fucking with it. Yeah, Now it's. It's just like life is like where it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah it feels very aligned very healing and open, and I, I'm so proud of you. You're such a you're just, you're a forest dude. And like you know, I think in some way you did end it because you were unhappy. You could have just been playing, playing happy girlfriend for years and years and years, and you were so checked out so that you did end it on your terms. Don't give him that power. We can thank him, whatever, but you ended it for yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it's just, it's just it's just.
Speaker 2:I know it's just complex, it totally is, and the feelings about her Cause you're right, but I mean you want that big moment where you're like I hate you, yeah, because people always ask that when I share this, they're like oh, what was the moment that you just were?
Speaker 1:you've had enough, and it's just I had had enough years before Sure. Right.
Speaker 2:And it isn't when you just have impressionable and you're what like 25? Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean I'm impressionable today. I'm always that, I'm always going that. That and I think that goes back to just always struggling with my self-worth and my self-confidence is that I was always what other people were telling me, that I am.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Maybe it was too hard to figure that out on my own, or it just would take too much thought, or too. I feel like I only like to like get deep with myself on my own terms, and when that's just happening, it's just easy for me to talk about walls and just being able to build them when I want to. Sometimes it's easier for me to do that and just not deal with it Of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, of course. Well, thank you guys. What are the girlies watching these days? Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:A lot of reality TV. That's what.
Speaker 1:I'm saying I knew, you guys, a lot of reality.
Speaker 2:TV. What have we been into? So I am catching up on Summer House.
Speaker 3:Okay, best show on Bravo, which is like fun. That's what I've heard. I was telling you this when I was talking to you a couple months ago.
Speaker 1:I need to watch it. It's great tune in it's worth it.
Speaker 3:It's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then Bridgerton. We've been watching that.
Speaker 3:I'm currently re-watching the OC. Always a fun time, always a fun time.
Speaker 1:God Marissa's style Her hair in season three. I think it is Season three.
Speaker 3:hair is peak, but also can we talk about her season one hair that's the most heat damaged hair.
Speaker 2:I've ever seen on television.
Speaker 3:It literally just stays. It's so bad Anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:What else are we watching, survivor?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I'm watching Survivor. Survivor's always fun. We just finished season 20. It was wild. And then I really want to start the show Six Feet Under Cool.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I've heard amazing things about that show Drama.
Speaker 2:I think it would be like a nice slow burn and just put that in, you know, in conjunction with my weird reality TV. Oh, perfect match on Netflix just dropped the dumbest show on television.
Speaker 3:I don't know if I can even finish it. I keep trying to watch it. I think I hate this. Yeah, it's horrible. I haven't watched much of it. It's a little like too dumb maybe.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's pretty stupid.
Speaker 1:So I like peacock reality shows like that more than Netflix is.
Speaker 3:I agree.
Speaker 1:I watched. I loved a couple of. A couple of throw was so good. It was Ramon, get out of here.
Speaker 2:I know I can't. I will say why y'all I am excited for, is it though?
Speaker 3:Yeah, ultimatum, I'm excited for the ultimate.
Speaker 1:I love the ultimate. Cause they're doing another queer season, which I know, okay, I loved that that shit was so good, because that has a little bit more like plot. Yeah, it was amazing.
Speaker 3:Sometimes the Netflix ones are just like missing a little bit of plot. For me, I agree, was ultimatum Netflix, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, oh my gosh, it's part of the Lachey empire.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, so wild. Also, I would watch love undercover, if you guys haven't. That one's pretty fun. It's on peacock. Oh my god. It's where the soccer players come over, and oh wait, yes, I've heard of it. They're dating girls from la and the girls just think they're with international guys. They hide that they're like super famous soccer players and then of course people in la don't have any exactly, even when they tell them like I play football, they you can tell that they don't get it.
Speaker 1:They don't understand, they look like soccer players, not football players Like wait, that sounds amazing.
Speaker 3:Have you watched traders Cause? I think that's what I'm going to watch next.
Speaker 1:I haven't no, but it looks yeah.
Speaker 3:I see that Sandoval is going to be on the next season. He's such a loser, did you?
Speaker 1:I feel like I can just watch it all through Instagram. I get the whole vibe.
Speaker 2:I thought the ending was interesting. The last episode was interesting. I appreciated the reunion.
Speaker 3:Me too the reunion. Yeah, I would watch the reunion.
Speaker 1:It's three parts but it's Buckle up. I watched one and two. I feel like, how do we feel about Lala?
Speaker 2:I mean, I love Lala, but I have a huge blind spot towards her which I don't understand.
Speaker 1:Okay, I love that Sarah.
Speaker 3:I also love her, but she's driving me absolutely crazy right now. Yeah, that's where I'm at with her right now.
Speaker 2:Yes, her.
Speaker 3:Virgo is showing. She is just so headstrong and so unable to understand that, speaking of journeys, she's very unable to see other people's journeys.
Speaker 2:She is I know, and she needs to fucking chill and she needs to chill.
Speaker 1:I love her she was so worried about having a successful season and keeping her show, but she just like shot herself in the foot at the end. There we none of the viewers wanted you to do this yeah, we wanted you to just be a girl's girl for fucking once and drop some one-liners yeah yeah it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she's gotten a little, I don't know, because I do love her.
Speaker 2:I like her too.
Speaker 3:I'm not trying to like don't think she needs to change or anything.
Speaker 2:We can't change her, because, yeah, we can't change anyone yeah, I am so over all of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too.
Speaker 3:I'm over it, I am just Did you watch.
Speaker 1:The the valley. I didn't because it seemed too sad. And I can't stand Kristen, I get that. It was part of it seemed sad. It just seemed like a bunch of dysfunctional people living too real of dysfunctional.
Speaker 2:I feel like you'd love it.
Speaker 3:It was really good I loved it. I loved it for the other couples. Okay, oh yeah, there are some other couples that come in that are and also I kind of liked it. And again, if you, some people want to watch reality TV and completely check out of reality, and I understand that's kind of what it's for, but sometimes I like sort of dissecting Same that the shit that they're going through feels much realer than anything else on Bravo.
Speaker 2:I love it as a new mom, but I think also they're older. It's more relatable Because they're a little older yeah exactly.
Speaker 3:It's not just like the like let's go to the bars and like have a chat and then like they're like dealing with real shit, yeah, and as someone who's we're all in real relationships with friends and you know partners as well, it was interesting sort of from that lens, yeah, because I like get into it a little bit more yeah. It's a good watch.
Speaker 1:Love it okay, he's like Kristen's gay friend and he's like oh yeah, but he was first.
Speaker 2:Britney's yeah. Yeah, he like makes the show for me awesome helmet of hair.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, um. Have we watched the Kardashians at all yet?
Speaker 2:no, it's on my list okay.
Speaker 3:I need to.
Speaker 1:I mean do we?
Speaker 3:I mean why not?
Speaker 1:they're always there for us.
Speaker 2:I love the Cardi's. Yeah, I have no shame about it.
Speaker 1:I don't care, I don't either. I love them.
Speaker 2:Remember when we watched it at the retreat.
Speaker 3:I actually think about that just randomly. Sometimes it was like we're at the yoga retreat.
Speaker 2:And then we're like let's watch the Cardis. It was truly unhinged.
Speaker 3:My favorite though, was when Stephanie came up behind us and was asking us questions about all of it, wanted to learn. Because, Pull up a chair. I know, let me tell you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, love them yeah.
Speaker 2:Bridgerton is filling my time right now, so good, oh, and House of the Dragon comes back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Really excited about that Tonight right Nice. It's always been on Sunday.
Speaker 1:I saw this reel today of like a woman and like it was me on June 13th and it was a woman with the Queen, charlotte wig, and it was me on June 17th and it was with the House of the Joe. But this was a stupid reel on Instagram, probably not accurate. I love it All right, ladies, thank you.